In fact, many of the points were well taken and I modified my article accordingly.
Here is a selection of some of the more interesting posts:
)Anastasia is unquestionably the greatest movie of its kind ever made. The
)critics pan it and it has gotten off to a slow start. Nevertheless,
)Anastasia is a movie which every man, woman and child must see.
Really? Audacity! : )
)In spite of these flaws, the creators of Anastasia, who are two top
)refugees from Walt Disney Productions, have done a magnificent job of
)turning the story of a young girl who was almost certainly killed by a firing
)squad in 1918, into a compelling children's story.
Why don't you mention that refugee John Pomeroy has left? Don Bluth and Gary Goldman were great animators and talents-granted BUT they are accredited with being the most talented animators at Disney at the time of their departure. That is far from the truth.
) Their attention to detail is fantastic.
. . . . . hmmmmm
)The real Anastasia looked just like the cartoon character Anastasia (although reports of that time say that the real Anastasia was somewhat overweight, in contrast to the "Barbie Doll" physique of the cartoon version.)
Actually, Anastasia's look came from the inspiration of the 'loverly' Audrey Hepburn. Unfortunately, I think few animators not to mention the ones at FOX could capture her ethereal beauty. Goldman and Bluth also looked to teen magazines to get a grunge look in. I think that the fact that she doesn't look like the real Anastasia is a good thing. Not trying to be offensive to you Sam Sloan, in any manner : ) Copying from a picture of the real princess would have been boring .
I just can't believe it's the best movie out there, or even close. Sorry---my opinion.
Meg
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: jerrica76@aol.com (Jerrica76)
Date: 1997/12/05
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Well !!!! all I can say is you are a true Anastasia buff like myself, your post was great but I have a few things to add:)
They DID NOT in fact find the bodies of Anastasia or Alexi. They found the bodies of The Tzar, tzarina, Grand Duchesses Olga, Titiana, and Maria and several of the servants but not those of the two smallest corpses reported to have been buried there (Alexi and Anastasia)
Also the dog that Anastasia carried down to the cellar with there that night was NOT hers, but rather her sister Titiana's dog Jemmy :) who was NOT found in the grave but in a well not far from the grave.
and finally Anna Anderson was NOT exhumed as she was cremated at the time of her death. What they did was us a tissue sample from a bit of intestine that the hospital kept when they performed a operation on Ms. Anderson in the late 70 early 80's.
well that is some of what I know if anyone has any other questions let me know:)
shelly
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: ShadZ ( shadz@rocketmail.com )
Date: 1997/12/05
Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.current-films,rec.arts.animation,alt.talk.royalty,alt.fan.meg-ryan
In article, sloan@ishipress.com wrote:
)
) The creators of the movie Anastasia have also spliced in parts of the
) story of Anna Anderson, a fake but almost convincing Anastasia who was
) found by a Polish court in the 1920s to be merely a Polish peasant girl
) in spite of her strong physical resemblance to the real Anastasia plus
) the fact that numerous persons who had known the actual Anastasia swore
) that Anna Anderson was Anastasia.
Don't forget, this movie is a remake of the previous Anastasia movie (starring Marlene Detrich) (the credit to the earlier movie is buried in the end credits, but it IS there), which was based on a French play, which was a "ripped from the headlines" story based on the Anna Anderson case. So of course there's lots of Anna Anderson references in the movie . . .
ShadZ
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: Marlene A. Koenig ( makoenig@delphi.com )
Date: 1997/12/05
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
ShadZ ( shadz@rocketmail.com ) writes:
)Don't forget, this movie is a remake of the previous Anastasia movie
)(starring Marlene Detrich) (the credit to the earlier movie is buried in
)the end credits, but it IS there), which was based on a French play, which
)was a "ripped from the headlines" story based on the Anna
)Anderson case. So of course there's lots of Anna Anderson references
)in the movie . . . The Anastasia animated film has nothing to do with the film Anastasia (based on Guy Bolton's play which was based on a French) -- but I can assure that Marlene Dietrich did not play Anastasia in the 1950s film - Ingrid Bergman was the lead -- And that is Dietrich not Detrich -- I'm rather partial to Marlene Dietrich movies - and I know she was not in Anastasia --not even as the Empress Marie -- that was Helen Hayes. I was named for Marlene Dietrich
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: "P.Kurth/ J. Hannah" ( lazari@sover.net )
Date: 1997/12/06
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
) )Don't forget, this movie is a remake of the previous Anastasia movie
) )(starring Marlene Detrich) (the credit to the earlier movie is buried in
) )the end credits, but it IS there), which was based on a French play, which
) )was a "ripped from the headlines" story based on the Anna
) )Anderson case. So of course there's lots of Anna Anderson references
) )in the movie . . .
Right so far as it goes, wrong on the rest. There is not a single reference to "Anna Anderson" in the new cartoon version of the old Bergman (not Dietrich) film. In the 1956 version, the Bergman character is several times called "Mrs. Anderson" -- but not "Anna Anderson" -- presumably because 20th Century Fox, at the last minute, had discovered that Mrs. Anderson was still alive and were obliged to secure her permission to release it. The original French play (by Marcelle-Maurette) did not use the name Anderson at all. At the time both were released, in any case, the world at large -- apart from lawyers, judges and personal friends -- did not know that the Anastasia claimant had taken Anderson as an alias. She was still remembered as "Anastasia Tchaikovsky."
The Fox cartoon *is* based on the Bergman film and the Maurette play to the extent that it adopts the central premise a) of an amnesiac who is hired to play the part of the tsar's daughter in order to get her hands on the legendary "Romanov Fortune" in Europe; b) who is vetted and finally acknowledged by the Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna; and c) who runs away to find love and happiness with a commoner rather than assume her royal rank. The cartoon has scenes that were directly adapted from the Bergman version. Since Fox already owned the rights to the Bergman film, no further permissions were necessary in producing the cartoon.
PK
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: walker@dnvn.com
Date: 1997/12/06
Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.current-films,rec.arts.animation,alt.talk.royalty,alt.fan.meg-ryan
In article, ShadZ ( shadz@rocketmail.com ) wrote:
) In article,
) sloan@ishipress.com wrote:
) )
) ) The creators of the movie Anastasia have also spliced in parts of the
) ) story of Anna Anderson, a fake but almost convincing Anastasia who was
) ) found by a Polish court in the 1920s to be merely a Polish peasant girl
) ) in spite of her strong physical resemblance to the real Anastasia plus
) ) the fact that numerous persons who had known the actual Anastasia swore
) ) that Anna Anderson was Anastasia.
)
) Don't forget, this movie is a remake of the previous Anastasia movie
) (starring Marlene Detrich) (the credit to the earlier movie is buried in
) the end credits, but it IS there), which was based on a French play, which
) was a "ripped from the headlines" story based on the Anna
) Anderson case. So of course there's lots of Anna Anderson references
) in the movie . . .
)
) ShadZ
) ^Q^
And don't forget that Anna Anderson was an obvious fake -- although she claimed to be Anastasia who was murdered when a teenager she had 'forgotten' how to speak Russian, her native tongue. That pretty well clinches the fraud, which of course had more recently been demonstrated through DNA testing.
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: mcintosh@netlink.com.au (Annette)
Date: 1997/12/14
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
In article, "D. Spencer Hines" ( shines@worldnet.att.net ) wrote:
) PK still won't tell us why "Anna Anderson" could not speak Russian.
You keep saying this -- I'm not very well-read about Anna Anderson I admit, but if there's a book in which it is stated that Mrs. Anderson could not speak Russian, I'd like to know of it. The couple of sources I have seen have basically said that Anna Anderson *wouldn't* speak Russian, not *couldn't* speak Russian. I see the distinction and if any book has made the distinction as "couldn't", please tell me of it so that I can read it for myself.
Annette.
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: "P.Kurth/ J. Hannah" ( lazari@sover.net )
Date: 1997/12/14
Newsgroups: alt.fan.meg-ryan,alt.talk.royalty,rec.arts.animation,rec.arts.movies.current-films
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
) Vive la difference et chacun a son gout.
That would assume your having some gout to begin with.
) PK still won't tell us why "Anna Anderson" could not speak Russian.
Anna Anderson could speak Russian. There are scores of witnesses to her speaking Russian. Their testimony is on the record. The very *first* testimonies taken in the case attest to her speaking Russian. It's just that they aren't believed.
Miss Hines still won't tell us how "Anna Anderson" could speak English without lessons.
Who's keeping this subject alive, anyhow? Not I.
PK
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: rivera@schubert.cs.colostate.edu (carol rivera)
Date: 1997/12/18
Newsgroups: alt.fan.meg-ryan,alt.talk.royalty,rec.arts.animation,rec.arts.movies.current-films
And wasn't a DNA test conducted proving that the women who claimed she was the long lost princess NOT related in any way to the Rominoff family.
She (by her DNA) was trace back to being some servant who worked for the family.
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: "P.Kurth/ J. Hannah" ( lazari@sover.net )
Date: 1997/12/17
Newsgroups: alt.fan.meg-ryan,alt.talk.royalty,rec.arts.animation,rec.arts.movies.current-films
Kerry wrote:
) It's no longer much of a secret that the Romanovs' gravesite was exhumed back
) in the early 90's and forensic tests done on the remains. I think it's in very
) poor taste to continue this stupid myth when the poor girl was shot and then
) bayoneted several times before dying.
Whereupon she disappeared with her own body -- leaving her jawbone behind, of course, so the Russians could pretend it was Maria who vanished.
PK
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: "Capt. J.D. Holliday USN" ( polaris14@hotmail.com )
Date: 1997/12/07
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
If I may contradict a few things, now you said the real Anastasia has been dug up too. Okay you also state the following: ***************************************************************************************
"The mass grave of her family was discovered in Yekaterinberg in the Ural mountains in 1991, after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The bodies of three females and two males were recovered, along with the bones of a small dog. The males were positively identified to be Czar Nicholas II and his son, Alexei. The dog was Anastasia's dog, whom she is said to have been holding in her arms when they were shot by the firing squad. However, supposedly six females were executed at Yekaterinberg in 1918. These were: Czarina Alexandra, her four daughters, Olga, Tatania, Marie and Anastasia, and the family cook. This means that the bodies of three females are unaccounted for."
***************************************************************************************
Now here is what you have wrong, in actuality 9 bodies were recovered from the mass grave, Nicholas II, Alexandra, Olga, Titiana , Marie, The cook, the doctor, the dog, and one other servant that worked for the family.
The bodies of Alexis and Anastasia we're not found among the grave, reports by the chief executioner Yukov Yurovsky said in his notes on the night, that he had burned 2 of the bodies "Alexis and Anastasia". So this does NOT mean that 3 females were unaccounted for this means that Alexis and Anastasia were not found among the mass grave.
Capt. J.D. Holliday
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: "Lorne" ( lornedog@hotmail.com )
Date: 1997/12/05
Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.current-films,rec.arts.animation,alt.talk.royalty,rec.arts.disney.animation
sloan@ishipress.com wrote:
) Anastasia is unquestionably the greatest movie of its kind ever made. The
) critics pan it and it has gotten off to a slow start. Nevertheless,
) Anastasia is a movie which every man, woman and child must see.
Umm... yeah, sure... okay...
) The critics complain that Anastasia fails to deal adequately with the
) Bolshevik Revolution and that it does not even mention the word
) Communism. Do they also complain that Snow White and Cinderella are not
) accurately historically described? The fact is that Anastasia was (and
) perhaps still is) a real, historical character. Indeed, all of the major
) characters in the movie Anastasia were actual real people, with the
) exception, of course, of Dimitri and Vladimir, the two con men who try to
) locate a suitable impostor to collect a ten million ruble reward which
) has been offered by the Dowager Empress Marie for the return of the real
) Anastasia.
This is true... I remember seeing a picture of Rasputin's talking bat in a book on the life story of the Romanovs.
) The creators did take liberties in two respects: In real life, the
) Dowager Empress Marie, the only member of the Romanov family to escape
) the firing squad, did not settle in Paris but rather in Denmark. However,
) the creators have explained that they wanted to capture the image of
) Paris in the 1920s.
So it's okay to take liberties because the animators wanted to depict Paris in the 1920s, even though it had nothing to do with the actual story? Would you still feel the same way had they wanted to depict the planet Mars in the 1920s? "Anastasia in Space" -- a historically accurate account except for the fact that her grandmother flees to Mars.
So that it is harder to trace this post back to the executive offices of 20th Century Fox. -- Lorne
Last five movies seen, rated out of (****):
Alien Resurrection (**1/2)
Midnight In The Garden Of Good And Evil (***)
The Rainmaker (***)
Anastasia (**)
Seven Years In Tibet (***1/2)
* To reply, remove the second "o" from my address (between "d" and "g").
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: Beezel( Beezel@lynx.bc.ca* )
Date: 1997/12/03
Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.current-films,rec.arts.animation,alt.talk.royalty,rec.arts.disney.animation
On 5 Dec 1997 10:32:11 GMT, "Lorne" ( lornedog@hotmail.com ) wrote:
)sloan@ishipress.com wrote:
) ) Anastasia is unquestionably the greatest movie of its kind ever made. The
) ) critics pan it and it has gotten off to a slow start. Nevertheless,
) ) Anastasia is a movie which every man, woman and child must see.
)
)Umm... yeah, sure... okay...
)
) ) The critics complain that Anastasia fails to deal adequately with the
) ) Bolshevik Revolution and that it does not even mention the word
) ) Communism. Do they also complain that Snow White and Cinderella are not
) ) accurately historically described?
I'm still trying to figure out why historical accuracy is such a big deal in this case. I don't recall quite so much debate over Pocahontas. True there was some ambiguous historical mysteries that the writers could take advantage of, such as it being unknown whether or not Smith and Pocahontas were actually in love. But other things like her true age, and her unfortunate death. Why don't we consider the possibility that MOST films are no more accurate than Anastasia, and that it's pretty much the standard that people take creative license when it comes to history, because history often has less than "cinematic" events, or endings for that mater. Take Casablanca for instance. Probably NO ONE escaped from Vishi France, and probably no one crossed northern Africa on foot from the Mediterranean either, But they wrote it in all the same. What's more Anastasia is a MUSICAL, and for me the word "musical" doesn't exactly suggest *real life* Even so, if Anya were a straight drama like NIMH I wouldn't care about the historical truth any more than I do now. I'd probably love the film even MORE than I do now. I'm not saying to hell with the truth. I'm just saying calm down and look at the big picture. Probably the biggest reason that this is such a big deal is that some people have it in their minds that only Uncle Walt is allowed to lie about the past.
---------To reply remove )*( Asterix )from Beezel@Lynx.bc.ca*( ---- Sorry for the inconvenience of reading through my posts! However... I will not respond to )unfriendly( comments regarding my spelling. Dyslexia does NOT equal stupidity. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: megara35@aol.com (Megara35)
Date: 1997/12/05
Newsgroups: rec.arts.disney.animation
)sloan@ishipress.com wrote:
) ) The critics complain that Anastasia fails to deal adequately with the
) ) Bolshevik Revolution and that it does not even mention the word
) ) Communism. Do they also complain that Snow White and Cinderella are not
) ) accurately historically described?
Maybe because they are fairy tales???? Snow White's relatives aren't appalled at the depiction of her life. Disney did, however get enough criticism for Pocahontas. The critics are being fair if not biased towards FOX.
) ) The creators did take liberties in two respects: In real life, the
) ) Dowager Empress Marie, the only member of the Romanov family to escape
) ) the firing squad, did not settle in Paris but rather in Denmark. However, the creators have explained that they wanted to capture the image of
) ) Paris in the 1920s.
That makes it okay I suppose? Good explanation. . .(typical Don Bluth story reasoning--- Non sequiter)
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: pppapazo@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Panagiotis P Papazoglou)
Date: 1997/12/08
Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.current-films,rec.arts.animation,alt.talk.royalty,rec.arts.disney.animation
Beezel (Beezel@lynx.bc.ca*) wrote: : On 5 Dec 1997 10:32:11 GMT, "Lorne" ( lornedog@hotmail.com ) wrote:
: )sloan@ishipress.com wrote: : ) ) Anastasia is unquestionably the greatest movie of its kind ever made. The critics pan it and it has gotten off to a slow start. Nevertheless, Anastasia is a movie which every man, woman and child must see. : ) : )Umm... yeah, sure... okay... : ) : ) ) The critics complain that Anastasia fails to deal adequately with the Bolshevik Revolution and that it does not even mention the word Communism. Do they also complain that Snow White and Cinderella are not accurately historically described?
I'm still trying to figure out why historical accuracy is such a big deal in this case. I don't recall quite so much debate over Pocahontis. True there was some ambiguous historical mysteries that the writers could take advantage of, such as it being unknown whether or not Smith and Pocahontis were actually in love. But other things like her true age, and her unfortunate death.
Actually, Poca aroused more controversy. I mean, the Russians aren't exactly around to complain of un-PC-ness.
Peter
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: Marlene A. Koenig ( makoenig@delphi.com )
Date: 1997/12/07
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
The Biff ( thebiff@aol.com ) writes:
)picture was the only difference being that Bergman was able to make personal
)appearances and this Anastasia will not. Not if you go to a toy store - Anastasia is there, and I have seen her and I want her -- in the imperial gown, of course ;)
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: thebiff@aol.com (The Biff)
Date: 1997/12/07
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
)The fact is that most movies based upon some aspect
)of history are flagrant abominations of the truth.
A further fact is that virtually all movies are based on some aspect of truth. The problem arises when you have a vulnerable audience that would have difficulty separating fact from fiction especially when the line between the two has been blurred. There are enough fairy tales around to make enjoyable movies that no one would mistake for truth yet are entertaining and answer the need that we have for happily ever after endings. No one has a problem with Cinderella because even small children know that mice don't turn into horses and pull coaches. With Anastasia you have a story that is not a fairy tail and is an historic event and as such is a history lesson, don't change it. At best the Viet-Nam war was a tie will they change that to make a nice story (money) for kids? History can be taught in an enjoyable manner as can most other things it does not need to be changed so that some company put together a contract deal to sell stuffed animals. I have seen bible stories, animated, which stuck to the story as we have always known it if someone wants to make a feature bible story film is it ok to change what happened to make it cute? Maybe Jesus wouldn't die after all, maybe he's get married and move to, where, oh yes Paris would be nice since it worked so well in Anastasia.
)They are primarily meant to be viewed as an art form, not as history lessons.
)
)
Don't fool yourself pal, this was not meant to be an art form it was meant to be a money maker and nothing else. I've long been interested in many aspects of show business and film making and art films don't make money, they get awards.
This film deals events that had a direct bearing on why the world is the way it is today, it's ok let the kids think a little bat was in on it, maybe some day they'll correct the history books and put references to the bat in them.
Subject: Re: Anastasia: The Movie and the Real Princess
From: jvprs6@aol.com (JVPRS6)
Date: 1997/12/07
Newsgroups: alt.talk.royalty
But the fact is they did not depict the movie in Mars they depicted it in Paris. T he makers always need to compromise history because they feel people would understand it better and enjoy it, and of course they know of the few who would rather see it in a historical since to be more accurate. They have to sacrifice that like they did in the movie 'Pocahontas'.
Subject: Re: My own personal reason for interest in the Anastasia Story
From: Jeff &; Lisa Davidson ( j.l.davidson@worldnet.att.net )
Date: 1997/12/09
)
) Page Williams died in 1993.
)
) Now that the movie "Anastasia" is out, I have been trying to find anyone
) who can remember who that Russian princess was. Unfortunately, all of my
) mother's old friends, who knew the story, are dead and gone now, or
) cannot remember.
)
) Does anybody out there know of a Russian princess (fake or real) who was
) born in 1943 or 1944 and who would have been living in Richmond, Virginia
) in 1950 or 1951?
)
) Sam Sloan
)
A possible explanation to your story is the use of the title "princess". In the West, we tend to associate this title with royalty. This is not the case in Russia.
Before the revolution, the only noble titles were "Count/ess" and "Prince/ss". The daughters and granddaughters (of the male line) of tsars were given the title "Grand Duchess of Russia". Thus, the use of the title "Princess" in the current movie is both incorrect, and denotes a lower (and non-royal) rank than that of the real Grand Duchess Anastasia.
As to the specifics of your story, it is entirely possible than a noble Russian, with the rank of princess, could have lived in Virginia in the 1950's. However, it would be doubtful that she would have been related to the Romanovs, let alone Anastasia.
There were, as you point out, surviving Romanovs outside the Imperial Family murdered in 1918. Some of these Romanovs did come to the United States after the Revolution. There are few enough that they are easy to identify. Only one had a daughter born in the 1940's that I know of.
Prince Vassili Alexandrovich was the youngest son of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich and Grand Duchess Xenia. The later was the last tsar's sister. Therefore, Vassili was first cousin to the Tsar's children and Anastasia. His daughter, and only child, Marina, was born in the early 1940's. Prince Vassili died in 1989 in Woodside, CA.
According to his nephew, Andrew, Prince Vassili lived in California after WWII (and possibly before - I only know that Andrew ended up in California after the war because his uncle invited him here). So, unless the party was for Marina, it is doubtful that the "Russian princess" was a relative of Anastasia.
BTW, Anna Anderson did not settle in Charlottesville, VA, until the late 1960's. In the 1950's, she lived near the Black Forest in Germany.
Lisa Davidson