"The few who do want to stay in India are recent arrivals, primarily Hindus, who do not have long heredity links to Kashmir."
I don't know where you arrived at that conclusion. Hindus have lived in Kashmir for centuries. They were a minority, yes, but until recently a very sizable minority -- perhaps 25% to 30% of the population. That their percentage has gone down is entirely due to the "ethnic cleansing" carried out by the militants in the last ten years -- the majority of whom seem to be Afghan mujahideen and not local Kashmiris. Hindus in Kashmir have had a long and rich culture. Muslims in Kashmir too have by and large not been fundamentalist like their brethren in the middle east. They originated tolerant traditions like Sufism which absorbed ideas from Hinduism in other cultures. Today, not just the Hindu culture, but the entire history of Kashmir is under the threat of being wiped out.
Kashmiri disenchantment with India is partially because of Indian screw-ups and insensitivity, but that is a relatively recent thing. It is not at all clear that before the 1980s most Kashmiris would have wanted to join Pakistan. Moreover, the assumption that a Muslim majority state must join Pakistan will strike most Indians as a dangerous idea -- simply because Muslim and other minorities have no problems in India and face no discrimination constitutionally and very little even otherwise, whereas minorities have virtually been wiped out in our officially Islamic neighbor. Muslims have been Presidents of India, held high posts in government (even the "Hindu nationalist" BJP government); a Muslim heads India's missile program and has been given our highest civilian honor; a Muslim is captain of the cricket team; Muslim artists, writers, actors are as popular and influential as their Hindu brethren. How does this compare with the ethnic scene in Pakistan? What would become of Kashmir's pluralism if the fundamentalists had their way?
Rahul. ( rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in )
However, I do not believe you have much history behind you. I first arrived in that region of the world in 1978. (I am a native born American). At that time, separatist groups in the Indian side of Kashmir had already been fighting against the Indian government for two decades. There were articles in Time, Newsweek and other news publications about this quite frequently. So, Kashmiri dissatisfaction with India is not a new thing.
It has always been clear that were a vote held, almost nobody in Indian Kashmir would vote to remain in India. The question is whether the majority would vote to join Pakistan or to be independent.
On the Pakistan side, not even one person could be found who would be in favor of joining India. I myself tried to talk some of them into trying to become independent from Pakistan. They would not hear of it, and correctly so, because of the threat from Afghanistan on one side and India on the other.
I do agree with you however, that Pakistan is anti-Hindu. The Hindus have lived in peace and harmony in Afghanistan at least until the Afghan War. (I was last in Afghanistan in 1978 and had many Hindu friends there. I do not know if they survived the war.) I have never agreed with the fact that the Hindus were driven from Pakistan in 1947.
However, Pakistan has a very sizable Christian minority, probably 10% or 20%, especially in Southern Pakistan in Sind, and the Christians have no problem there. There are Christian churches in Peshawar with a big attendance for Sunday worship. I am personally a witness to this.
My basic point is that if at any time between 1947 and now a vote had been taken, Kashmir would have voted to leave India.
It is now clear that militants are entering Indian Kashmir and are fighting there. This is a legacy left over from the Afghan War. Please remember that India, especially under Indira Gandhi, was the biggest ally the Communist Government of Afghanistan had during that war. Now that the Afghans have driven the Soviets out of Afghanistan at great cost in human life, it should come as no surprise that the Afghan freedom fighters are turning on their other long term enemy during that War: India.
If India had merely remained neutral during the Afghan War, I do not believe that the former Afghan mujahidin would be coming across the border to fight against the Indian Army now.
As to the involvement of the Government of Pakistan, I do not believe it. I know the terrain well. The Soviet Union was never able to stop the militants from crossing from Pakistan to Afghanistan, in spite of laying land minds etc. How can Pakistan be expected to stop some of the same militants from crossing the same mountain ranges into India?
Sam Sloan
It has always been clear that were a vote held, almost nobody in Indian Kashmir would vote to remain in India. The question is whether the majority would vote to join Pakistan or to be independent.
It may be true now but it's not clear whether it would have been true always. Anyway that's a question that can't be answered.
You don't talk about the main point -- that contrary to what you say, Hindus and Hindu culture have had a sizable presence in Kashmir, and Kashmiri Hindus are now refugees in their own country, and their rights should be considered. It's not an issue of Muslims should join Pakistan, period.
However, Pakistan has a very sizable Christian minority, probably 10% or 20%, especially in Southern Pakistan in Sind, and the Christians have no problem there. There are Christian churches in Peshawar with a big attendance for Sunday worship. I am personally a witness to this.
They have no problems as long as they steer clear of Pakistan's blasphemy laws. There was a case a couple of years back when a bishop shot himself over a blasphemy case. Other minorities like Ahmadiyyas are actively persecuted -- Pakistan's Nobel laureate, Abdus Salam, could not work in his own country. I can't think of any prominent or well known Christians in Pakistan -- in their government, in their cricket or hockey teams -- I'm not too well up on their other activities like culture or academia. It's easy to reel off a list of well-known Christians in India, starting from the defense minister.
Government of Afghanistan had during that war. Now that the Afghans have driven the Soviets out of Afghanistan at great cost in human life, it should come as no surprise that the Afghan freedom fighters are turning on their other long term enemy during that War: India.
I take it, then, that you are sympathetic to the Afghan "freedom fighters" and the sort of things they are doing in their own country. No comments. Your other suggestion that they are fighting India because India is Soviet/Russia-friendly, is equally absurd. Why then are they now targeting America, the country which helped and armed them? Their goal is world domination, India's past leanings are quite irrelevant, it only matters that India is not an Islamic country. Sure, the Soviet invasion was a bad thing, but it doesn't mean that what followed is better. America is now learning to its cost that you can't arm militants and not remain unscathed; unfortunately America's cost is not as high as India's.
At 07:31 PM 6/20/99 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote:
A separatist group is not the same thing as a whole community. I have known enough Kashmiri Muslims as well as Hindus to know you can't generalize. (I suppose I'd be unlikely to meet the pro-Pakistan ones in the first place, however.) Incidentally, in the 1980s Pakistan tried to start a similar uprising in Punjab, which again was mishandled by our government, but it has now fizzled out.
I do not believe that Pakistan tried to start any problem in Indian Punjab in the 1980s. This is just Indian government propaganda which does not want the people to realize that their own Punjabis are against them.
I personally crossed by train from Lahore to Amritsar in November, 1983. I went inside the Golden Temple in Amritsar. I did not see any problem at that time although I was told by the locals that even though I and other tourists were allowed inside, the Indian government could not go in there.
I know many Sikhs from Punjab here in America. They think it is wonderful that Indira Gandhi was killed and they honor and revere the men who killed her. These people have no affiliation whatever with Pakistan.
They have a web site http://www.khalistan.com.
Please do not tell me that the trouble started in 1984, because I know for a fact that it was going on long before that.
Going by newspaper reports and people like Dan Burton you'd think Sikhs are the most persecuted community in India -- in fact they are among the most strongly patriotic Indians, and until 1984 when certain hoodlums inflicted some unspeakable barbarism on them in Delhi, they had little to complain about. Even so, today Punjab seems to have put the past behind it.
I do not feel that the Sikhs are persecuted. I think they are in charge. My disagreement with you is that you seem to think that Pakistan somehow is behind the Sikhs, whereas Pakistan is Muslim and the Sikhs are Hindus.
It may be true now but it's not clear whether it would have been true always. Anyway that's a question that can't be answered.
You don't talk about the main point -- that contrary to what you say, Hindus and Hindu culture have had a sizable presence in Kashmir, and Kashmiri Hindus are now refugees in their own country, and their rights should be considered. It's not an issue of Muslims should join Pakistan, period.
I am sure that what you say is true. Similarly, the Serbs who now live in Kosovo and who are trying to stay there are having lots of problems and may eventually be forced to leave.
It does not surprise me that the Hindus in Kashmir are now having trouble. This is unfortunate and I am against it, but this can be seen as a consequence of destroying an ancient mosque in Kashmir for example.
They have no problems as long as they steer clear of Pakistan's blasphemy laws. There was a case a couple of years back when a bishop shot himself over a blasphemy case. Other minorities like Ahmadiyyas are actively persecuted -- Pakistan's Nobel laureate, Abdus Salam, could not work in his own country. I can't think of any prominent or well known Christians in Pakistan -- in their government, in their cricket or hockey teams -- I'm not too well up on their other activities like culture or academia. It's easy to reel off a list of well-known Christians in India, starting from the defense minister.
I agree that Pakistan is a Muslim country and is it unlikely that any non-Muslim will become prominent there, whereas India has more tolerance for the wide variety of religious groups there.
I take it, then, that you are sympathetic to the Afghan "freedom fighters" and the sort of things they are doing in their own country. No comments. Your other suggestion that they are fighting India because India is Soviet/Russia-friendly, is equally absurd. Why then are they now targeting America, the country which helped and armed them? Their goal is world domination, India's past leanings are quite irrelevant, it only matters that India is not an Islamic country. Sure, the Soviet invasion was a bad thing, but it doesn't mean that what followed is better. America is now learning to its cost that you can't arm militants and not remain unscathed; unfortunately America's cost is not as high as India's.
As you may be aware, I was very active in supporting the Afghan Freedom Fighters at an early stage. However, by 1981, I stopped any active efforts to help them because I realized that they were spending more time fighting and killing each other than they were in fighting the Soviets.
I am not happy about what is continuing to happen in Afghanistan but I do not see what anybody can do about it.
I do not agree that their goal is world domination. One thing about Muslims is that they rarely try to win converts. I have never seen a Muslim in Pakistan for example try to convert a Christian to Islam. Instead, the Muslims try to make each other better Muslims.
I read the newspapers and I know that what you say is true that militants are entering Kashmir from the Pakistan side. I did not believe it myself until recently. The reason I did not believe it is that this has always been false propaganda from India such as your claim that Pakistan tried to stir up trouble among the Sikhs in Indian Punjab. Now it seems that in Kashmir there is a real uprising against Indian rule. However, if the Indian Kashmiris did not support this, it could never happen. Indira Gandhi always tried to blame her problems on "outside agitators", when it was actually her own people who were against her.
Sam Sloan
behind the Sikhs, whereas Pakistan is Muslim and the Sikhs are Hindus.
That shows what you know. Try telling your Sikh friends that they are Hindu.
Anyway, this was an interesting exchange. I visited your website a couple of times earlier, the story of your daughter was rather appalling but what's worse is why, if it is true and you have documentary evidence, the "free press" in the US is not interested... On other things, whatever your opinions, I admit you make interesting reading.
Rahul.