Philip De BRAOSE was born before 1073 in Of, Bramber, Sussex, England. He died in 1134/1135 in Holy Land, Palestine. He was buried in Holy Land, Palestine. He married Aenor De TOTNAIS.
Aenor De TOTNAIS was born about 1084 in Of, Barnstaple, Devonshire, England. She married Philip De BRAOSE.
They had the following children:
M i John BRAOSE was born about 1098 in Of, Bramber, Sussex, England. M ii Gildon De BRAOSE was born about 1114 in Of, Huglesham, Wiltshire, England. F iii Maud De BRAOSE was born about 1116 in Of, Bramber, Sussex, England. M iv William De BRAOSE was born about 1100. He died about 1192. M v Philip De BRAOSE was born in 1100/1130 in Of Bramber, Sussex, England. He died before 10 Jan 1201. F vi Daughter De BRAOSE was born about 1102 in <Of, Bramber, Sussex, England>.
Llewelyn Ap IORWERTH Llewelyn the Great [Parents] was born in 1173 in Aberffraw Castle, Caernarvonshire, Wales. He died on 11 Apr 1240 in Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales. He married Tangwystl Verch LLYWARCH.
Other marriages:ENGLAND, Joan Princess Of
Unknown
Having followed the various threads on this subject, is the following correct?
Llywellyn Fawr (1194-1240)
Married [1] Joan Plantagenet (c 1189-1236)Children:
Gwladus Ddu (1206-1251) m[1] Reginald de Braose
m[2] Ralph Mortimer
Margaret m[1] John de Braose
m[2] Walter de Clifford
Angharad
Dafydd (1208-1246) m Isabel de Braose
Susanna
Ellen (Helen) m[1] Malcolm, Earl of Fife
m[2] DonaldMarried [2] Gwenllian of Brynffenigi
Children:
Helen m[1] John le Scot
m[2] Robert de Quincey
GwenllianMistress: Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch
Child: Gruffydd (1196-1244)
Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>
My genealogy website:
http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html
Dave Utzinger posted on this based on the an article by William Addams
Reitwiesner in The Genealogist, vol. 1, no. 1 (Spring 1980), pp. 80-95. This
is his list:Descendants of Llywelyn ap Iorworth
1 Llywelyn ap Iorworth b: Abt. 1173 in Dolyddelan, Wales d: 11 April
1240 in Aberconway Abbey, Carnarvonshire, Wales
. +Tangwystl verch Llwarch b: Abt. 1168 in of Rhos, Wales d: Bef. 1205
2 Gruffudd ap Llewellyn b: Bef. 1205 d: 01 March 1243/44 in London,
ENG
. +Senena ferch Caradog
*2nd Wife of Gruffudd ap Llewellyn:
. +Rhanullt
*2nd Wife of Llywelyn ap Iorworth:
. +Joan Plantagenet b: Abt. 1191 d: 02 February 1236/37 in Aber
Palace, Carnarvon, Wales
2 Elen verch Llywelyn b: in Gwynedd, Wales d: Bef. 24 October
1253
. +John of Scotland b: 1207 m: 1222 d: Abt. 06 June 1237
*2nd Husband of Elen verch Llywelyn:
. +Robert de Quincey b: Abt. 1176 m: Aft. 06 June 1237 d: Abt. 1257
2 Dafydd ap Llywelyn b: Abt. 1208 d: 12 February 1245/46 in Aber
. +Concubine
*2nd Wife of Dafydd ap Llywelyn:
. +Isabel de Braose b: Abt. 1215 m: Abt. 10 August 1230 d: Bef. 1248
*3rd Wife of Llywelyn ap Iorworth:
. +Unknown
2 Gwenllian of Wales d: 1281
. +William de Lacy
2 Angharad verch Llewelyn
. +Maelgwn Fychan d: 1257
2 Tegwared y Baiswen
. +Gwenllian ferch Ednyfed ap Cynwrig
2 Angharad verch Llywelyn
. +Philip ap Ivor
2 Daughter verch Llywelyn
. +William Caentwn
2 Gwladys Dhu of Wales b: Abt. 1194 in of Gwynedd, Wales d: 1251 in
Windsor, BRK, ENG
. +Reginald de Braose b: Abt. 1171 in Bramber, SSX, ENG m: 1215
d: Bet. 05 May 1227 - 09 June 1228 in Brecon, Breconshire, Wales
*2nd Husband of Gwladys Dhu of Wales:
. +Ralph de Mortimer b: 1190 in of Wigmore, HEF, ENG m: 1230 d: 06
August 1246 in Wigmore, HRT, ENG
2 Margred verch Llewellyn b: Abt. 1208 in Wales (North) d: 1268
. +John de Breuse b: Abt. 1198 m: Abt. 1220 d: Abt. 02 November
1232 in Bramber, SUS, ENG
*2nd Husband of Margred verch Llewellyn:
. +Walter III de Clifford b: Abt. 1186 in ENG m: Abt. 1232 in SSX, ENGd: Abt. 23 December 1263 in Clifford
2 Helen verch Llewellyn b: Abt. 1234 in of Wales
. +Malcolm MacDuff b: Bef. 1228 d: 1266
*2nd Husband of Helen verch Llewellyn:
. +Donald de Mar d: Aft. 25 July 1297
Tangwystl Verch LLYWARCH [Parents] was born about 1168 in Of, Rhos, Denbighshire, Wales. She married Llewelyn Ap IORWERTH Llewelyn the Great.
They had the following children:
F i Gwladys "Ddu" Verch LLEWELYN was born about 1205. She died in 1251. M ii Gruffudd Ap LLYWELYN was born about 1207 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. He died on 1 Mar 1244.
Walkelin (William) De FERRIERES was born about 1140 in Of, Oakham, Rutlandshire, England. He was christened in Of Castle, Tutbury, Staffordshire, England. He died after 31 Dec 1189 in Of, , Normandy, France. He was buried before 21 Oct 1190 in , Seige Of Acre, Jerusalem, Palestine. He married Sybil De BRAOSE about 1173/1174 in Of, , Sussex, England.
Sybil De BRAOSE [Parents] was born about 1157 in Of, Bramber, Sussex, England. She died after 5 Feb 1227/1228 in , , , England. She married Walkelin (William) De FERRIERES about 1173/1174 in Of, , Sussex, England.
They had the following children:
F i Agatha De FERRERS was born about 1168. M ii William De FERRERS was born about 1162 in Of, Ferrers, Derbyshire, England. He died on 22 Sep 1247. M iii Son De FERRERS was born about 1168 in , , , England. M iv Son De FERRERS was born about 1170 in , , , England. M v Son De FERRERS was born about 1172 in , , , England. F vi Millicent De FERRERS was born about 1170 in Of, Derby, Derbyshire, England. M vii Robert FERRERS was born about 1177 in Of, Tutbury, Stafford, England. He died in 1227. F viii Elizabeth De FERRERS was born about 1166 in Of, Tutbury, Staffordshire, England.
Gruffydd Ap CYNAN [Parents] was born in 1055 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. He died in 1137 in , , Caernarvonshire, Wales. He was buried in Bangor Cathedral, Is Gwyrfai, Caernarvonshire, Wales. He married Angharad Verch OWAIN about 1082.
Angharad Verch OWAIN [Parents] was born about 1065 in Of Tegaingl, Flintshire, Wales. She died in 1162. She married Gruffydd Ap CYNAN about 1082.
They had the following children:
M i Membyr "Ddu" Ap GRUFFUDD was born about 1114 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. F ii Rhael Verch GRUFFUDD was born about 1116 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. F iii Annes Verch GRUFFUDD was born about 1118 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. F iv Margred Verch GRUFFUDD was born about 1120 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. M v Tudwal Ap GRUFFUDD was born about 1122 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. F vi Susanna Verch GRUFFYDD was born about 1095. F vii Rhanullt Verch GRUFFYDD was born about 1083 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. F viii Elen Verch GRUFFYDD was born about 1089 in Of, Aberffraw Castle, Anglesey, Wales. M ix Owain "Gwynedd" Ap GRUFFYDD was born about 1087. He died in Dec 1169. F x Merinedd Verch GRUFFYDD was born about 1091 in Of, Aberffraw Castle, Anglesey, Wales. M xi Cadwaladr Ap GRUFFUDD was born about 1096 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. He died in Mar 1172. He was buried in Bangor, Caernarvonshire, Wales. F xii Gwenllian II Verch GRUFFYDD was born about 1090 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. M xiii Cadwallon Ap GRUFFYDD was born about 1097 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Walesey, Wales. He died in 1132. F xiv Gwenllian I Verch GRUFFUDD was born about 1085 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales.
Owain Ap EDWIN was born about 1044 in Of Llys Edwin, Llaneurguin, Flintshire, Wales. He died in 1105. He married Morwyl Verch EDNYWAIN.
Morwyl Verch EDNYWAIN was born about 1048 in Of Tegaingl, Flintshire, Wales. She married Owain Ap EDWIN.
They had the following children:
M i Gronwy Ap OWAIN was born about 1073. He died in 1124. F ii Angharad Verch OWAIN was born about 1065. She died in 1162.
Maelgwn "Ieuanc" ("Fychan") Ap MAELGWN was born about 1208 in <Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales>. He died in 1257. He married Angharad Verch LLYWELYN.
Angharad Verch LLYWELYN [Parents] was born about 1212 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. She married Maelgwn "Ieuanc" ("Fychan") Ap MAELGWN.
Edgar "The Peacable", King Of ENGLAND [Parents] was born about 943 in Wessex, England. He died on 8 Jul 975 in Wessex, England. He married Elfrida Elfthryth, Queen Of ENGLAND in 964 in , , Wessex, England.
Elfrida Elfthryth, Queen Of ENGLAND [Parents] was born about 947 in Of Devonshire, England. She died in 1000. She married Edgar "The Peacable", King Of ENGLAND in 964 in , , Wessex, England.
They had the following children:
M i Ethelred II "The Unready" King Of ENGLAND was born about 968. He died on 23 Apr 1016. M ii Edmund, Prince Of ENGLAND was born about 966 in , , Wessex, England. He died in 970 in , , Wessex, England.
Robert De QUINCY [Parents] was born about 1186/1188 in Of, Winchester, (buckley), Hampshire, England. He was christened in 1219. He died in Aug 1257 in Spm, London, Middlesex, England. He was buried in Hospitallers, Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England. He married Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN.
Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN [Parents] was born about 1206 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. She died before 24 Oct 1253 in Of, Chester, Cheshire, England. She married Robert De QUINCY.
Other marriages:MAR, Donald Earl Of
You have asked the $64,000 question. You have the two Helens wrong. The Helen
that married [1] John le Scot and m[2] Robert de Quincey was the daughter of
Joan. The other Helen is not a proven daughter of Llywelyn at all.You have assigned Gwladys to Joan instead of Tangwystl -- and I think that is
fair. It is 50/50 at best that you are right -- and with Joan's lands going
to Gwladys family and Gwladys dying at Windsor -- and the Mortimer genealogy
going through Joan to William the Conqueror in a 14th century manuscript
tradition, I would say the weight of the slim facts favor Joan over the Welsh
mistress. Since you have to enter a mother, I would keep it that way. I will
change my personal database from Tangwystl to Joan on the basis of this
discussion.From: KHF333@aol.com
Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales, and his lawful wife, Joan, had several legitimate children, among them being Ellen, wife successively of John of Scotland, Earl of Chester and Huntingdon, and Robert de Quincy, Knt. Ellen's place as a legitimate daughter of Joan is proven by an entry in Calendar of Close Rolls, 1234-1237 (1908), pp. 538-539, where Countess Ellen is styled "our niece" [nepte nostra] by Henry III, King of England.
Recently, however, I encountered further evidence which supports blood kinship between Countess Ellen and the English royal family. Ellen had two surviving daughters by her marriage to Robert de Quincy, one being Hawise de Quincy, wife of Baldwin Wake. The record below states specifically that Hawise de Quincy was of the "consanguinity" (bloodline) of King Edward I:
"Date: 18 Feb. 1282
Order [by King Edward I] to the sheriff of Lincoln to levy £100 from the goods late of Baldwin Wak, deceased, by view of Aubrey de Wintelbiry, and deliver the same to Hawise, late his wife, for the expenses of his burial, and to levy also £40 therefrom by view of the same Aubrey and deliver them to her by reason of her consanguinity."
[Calendar of Fine Rolls, 1 (1911): 159].
Hawise de Quincy, wife of Baldwin Wake, and King Edward I were first cousins first removed, they both being descendants of King John.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com
copyright
They had the following children:
F i Joane QUINCY was born about 1240 in Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England. F ii Hawise De QUINCY was born about 1242. She died in 1285. F iii Anne De QUINCY was born about 1238 in Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England.
Donald Earl Of MAR was born about 1243 in Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. He died after 25 Jul 1297. He married Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN about 1269 in Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.
Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN [Parents] was born about 1206 in Of, , Caernarvonshire, Wales. She died before 24 Oct 1253 in Of, Chester, Cheshire, England. She married Donald Earl Of MAR about 1269 in Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.
Other marriages:QUINCY, Robert De
You have asked the $64,000 question. You have the two Helens wrong. The Helen
that married [1] John le Scot and m[2] Robert de Quincey was the daughter of
Joan. The other Helen is not a proven daughter of Llywelyn at all.You have assigned Gwladys to Joan instead of Tangwystl -- and I think that is
fair. It is 50/50 at best that you are right -- and with Joan's lands going
to Gwladys family and Gwladys dying at Windsor -- and the Mortimer genealogy
going through Joan to William the Conqueror in a 14th century manuscript
tradition, I would say the weight of the slim facts favor Joan over the Welsh
mistress. Since you have to enter a mother, I would keep it that way. I will
change my personal database from Tangwystl to Joan on the basis of this
discussion.From: KHF333@aol.com
Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales, and his lawful wife, Joan, had several legitimate children, among them being Ellen, wife successively of John of Scotland, Earl of Chester and Huntingdon, and Robert de Quincy, Knt. Ellen's place as a legitimate daughter of Joan is proven by an entry in Calendar of Close Rolls, 1234-1237 (1908), pp. 538-539, where Countess Ellen is styled "our niece" [nepte nostra] by Henry III, King of England.
Recently, however, I encountered further evidence which supports blood kinship between Countess Ellen and the English royal family. Ellen had two surviving daughters by her marriage to Robert de Quincy, one being Hawise de Quincy, wife of Baldwin Wake. The record below states specifically that Hawise de Quincy was of the "consanguinity" (bloodline) of King Edward I:
"Date: 18 Feb. 1282
Order [by King Edward I] to the sheriff of Lincoln to levy £100 from the goods late of Baldwin Wak, deceased, by view of Aubrey de Wintelbiry, and deliver the same to Hawise, late his wife, for the expenses of his burial, and to levy also £40 therefrom by view of the same Aubrey and deliver them to her by reason of her consanguinity."
[Calendar of Fine Rolls, 1 (1911): 159].
Hawise de Quincy, wife of Baldwin Wake, and King Edward I were first cousins first removed, they both being descendants of King John.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com
copyright
They had the following children:
F i Marjory (Margaret) Of MAR was born about 1270 in Of, Mar, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. She died before 24 Jul 1326. M ii Gratney (Gartnet) Earl Of MAR was born about 1272 in Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. He died in Sep 1305. M iii Duncan Of MAR was born about 1274 in Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. M iv Alexander Of MAR was born about 1276 in Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. F v Isabell (Matilda) Of MAR was born about 1278. She died about 1320. F vi Mary Of MAR was born about 1280 in Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.
William De BRAOSE [Parents] was born about 1175 in Of, Bramber, Sussex, England. He died in 1210 in Of, Carfe Or, Windsor Castle. He married Maud De CLARE.
Maud De CLARE.Maud married William De BRAOSE.
They had the following children:
M i John De BREUSE was born about 1198. He died on 18 Jul 1232.